Ex post facto law

[Polar BearPosts: 45]

Creating a rule then punishing people for breaking the rule before it was created is shitty, and explicitly prohibited in a significant number of first world legal systems. Because there were no terms of service or posted rules of any kind before Ivana’s post on the 20th, I’m of the opinion that all those who were banned for exploiting should have their bans immediately removed, unless it can be proven that they exploited (assuming the allegations are true to begin with) after the rules post was made.

[Kaylovespie Lvl 2 LondonSkeletonPosts: 173]

The rule has been in the about (check FAQ) since the game’s release and even before that in the previous version of the game for over 10 years now.

We were lenient before with several circumstances, but now that players have been killed via exploits that were being kept hidden, action needed to be taken.

They have admitted to it, there are witnesses, and it has all been proven with server logs.
We chose not to go into details about the exploits themselves or the people who reported the abuse for their own protection.

Would you really want proof to be posted publicly? The logs we have access to? The conversations we have had with players outside the forums or game? You would be exposing things about people you may not be aware of, and putting people in danger in the game. JVH and I decided this current system is the most fair for everyone while taking these kind of dangerous exploits seriously.

[GoblinPosts: 99]

Tldr, go away.

[Polar BearPosts: 45]

As per google’s cached version of the about page from 9/19/16:

There are no rules! Ha ha ha.. players make the rules in this game. Though I would appreciate it if you report any bugs you find, rather than exploiting them.

That’s phrased in a way that indicates reporting bugs instead of exploiting them is not a rule at all.

They have admitted to it

I have it on good authority (meaning from the banned players themselves) that this isn’t the case.

Would you really want proof to be posted publicly?

Yes, because I believe a proper justice system is entirely transparent. I’m not asking you to divulge proof though, I already now that you won’t. Rather, I’d like the game’s remaining players to be aware of the fact that you won’t, despite it being necessary.

[Kaylovespie Lvl 2 LondonSkeletonPosts: 173]

No Ceaser, this is a fair point for him to bring up. He probably didn’t see or remember the rule from the About page which is why we put it in a super-sticky on the new forums for more visibility.

I’m fine with discussing all these matters with the community as long as we keep it civil. Only two people are suspended from the forums currently for harassment.

Let me know if there are any questions about the new suspension system for the exploit rule or any of the particular offenders of the rule. I’ll do my best to answer, though most have asked to have their identities kept secret in these matters.

[Kaylovespie Lvl 2 LondonSkeletonPosts: 173]

Left, that version of the rule text was only there for a short time during edits, it had one version for a long time and has been edited a few times for clarity. You can verify this in internet archives.

If you would like me to post proof I can, but would you accept their guilt if I do? I have to go get screenshots of logs and such but would you be patient with me to get these things for you?

There has definitely been a lot of lies being told from members of the frost legion tribe that we have been keeping secret of course for their reputation and because lying to other players isn’t against any rules – BUT when it involves exploits that lead to players deaths it is very serious would you agree?

[RobinHood Lvl 95 USEastPolar BearPosts: 40]

Verbatim from Sephi on the forums in another post if you bothered to read it:

The logging-on-off thing I did learn about, almost tragically while helping expand our farm by taking down ruins. My net lagged me out, I d/c’d and had Sir been slower, afk, or lower level he might have died. That “sleeping bug” did not take you to the other side of the wall it just let you hit through it if you had a weapon that could have done so. I suspect this bug happened because it used to be a thing where you could hit through walls but it was OP and changed.

So now shes admitted to discovering the bug, involving Sir in the process. Instead of reporting it, she clearly shared it with the tribe only, because Caesar and Nefer went on to abuse this bug to get kills on a number of people. It’s easily noticeable by any player who is online, because they log in right after making the kill, as they have to be offline to kill them.

It’s a shame that people are so desperate to be in control that they can’t be legitimate beta testers.

[SPKrylos Lvl 54 USEastPolar BearPosts: 39]

Tldr; this is a game, treat it as such. We have no rights, it’s not our property.

Would you really want proof to be posted publicly?

Yes, because I believe a proper justice system is entirely transparent. I’m not asking you to divulge proof though, I already now that you won’t. Rather, I’d like the game’s remaining players to be aware of the fact that you won’t, despite it being necessary.

So, this is a pretty intense game. Many people, especially members of Frost Legion put untold hours into this game. It has also been quite punishing with the constant persistence, and the harsh death penalties (which recently I’ve found through experience are a lot more lenient now). Because of this, I see that emotions can run high for this game.. I think that’s one thing that draws people into it, and is completely understandable with the time and effort people put into it. I’ve seen so many hurt feelings on this forum, and have felt hurt myself recently.

What seems to be problematic, in my opinion, is that from these things we start treating this less like a game and hold up our virtual lives to the same scrutiny and morals that we would in our real lives. We should never lose sight of the fact that this is a game. This isn’t our world, and we have no inherent rights to it. The plug could be pulled any day for any reason (or none). We could wake up one day, and the server is just down, RIP. I don’t think it will happen, but it’s an important thing to hold in mind, I think – just for our own peace of mind. I hope the lowered death penalties can help to alleviate people’s pain of loss in this game, and I hope more updates come out soon that help us take it less seriously.

Does it suck to get banned? Yes, definitely. It can feel like a personal attack. It’s reasonable to feel upset and hurt. Also, in my 20+ years of gaming, I can not think of one time that developers for any game have had to produce server logs to justify a ban. Every EULA I have ever seen says that the company reserves the right to terminate or suspend accounts for any reason whatsoever. They don’t need a reason at all.. it’s their property. When playing an online game, I think it’s a pretty safe assumption that those are the rules even without an explicit warning. If people are exploiting (I have no idea if they were or not), it seems reasonable to suspend an account. If you disagree, try to imagine what it would be like if you got killed by an exploiter. Would you want something done? I would. Regardless, it’s still the dev’s right (any dev for any game) to suspend or ban accounts at will, reason or no. That’s just the reality of modern gaming. Gone are the days where you buy a cartridge, and you own it yourself.

[Polar BearPosts: 45]

Left, that version of the rule text was only there for a short time during edits

What reason would there possibly be for you to change from an explicit rule to an implicit not-rule then back to an explicit rule? If it was always ironclad there would be no need for edits in the first place.

But I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt here. If you can show me an archived version of that page from a third-party source verifying that it was worded more strongly in the past I’ll concede.

If you would like me to post proof I can, but would you accept their guilt if I do?

I’m not going to say no, but I think we’ll have very different ideas of what constitutes guilt, and obviously if you can’t provide the archived page I asked for the logs won’t matter.

To expand a bit:

It’s a shame that people are so desperate to be in control that they can’t be legitimate beta testers.

This game is in alpha, and has, at its very best, thirty players. You’re throwing around month long IP bans without a warning for exploiting a single bug in an alpha test with less than three dozen players. Just… why? It’s not like these players are detrimental to the game either. Not only are they by far the most active group of players the game has ever seen, they maintain highways across the map, maintain a market, repair other players’ buildings in their free time, and keep the peace against griefers (who remain completely untouched by you guys despite harassing other players nearly to the point of making them quit with racial slurs).

These players are your bread and butter, and you’re pushing them away for seemingly no reason.

And Robin, I know you don’t like FL, but tyrannical admins are so much worse. You should be ashamed of yourself.

What seems to be problematic, in my opinion, is that from these things we start treating this less like a game and hold up our virtual lives to the same scrutiny and morals that we would in our real lives.

I don’t think that’s problematic at all. Quite the contrary, it seems to me like that would be evidence of the game working exactly as intended.

And yes, there’s nothing stopping the developer from handling the service in any way they see fit, but that doesn’t mean unfounded bans aren’t bad. All I’m doing here is voicing an opinion.

[Kaylovespie Lvl 2 LondonSkeletonPosts: 173]

Left, here is our website revision system dated from April showing the rule is very straightforward. Long time players (many of which are in FL) already know this rule has been around for over a decade in this form. You can look for other sources if you like, we have nothing to hide.

[Kaylovespie Lvl 2 LondonSkeletonPosts: 173]

Here is just a small portion of proof compiled that links Frost Legion members to exploits. These exploits are sadly not the only reason people have lodged complaints and quit the game due to FL.

Here is Sephi admitting she knew about the bug, and that she found out by accident with Sir.

[Kaylovespie Lvl 2 LondonSkeletonPosts: 173]

Here she is ~8 hours ago saying she told Julius about the exploit because he had JVH on skype.

[Kaylovespie Lvl 2 LondonSkeletonPosts: 173]

Here is JVH reminding Julius about the one rule (notice how he doesn’t question it as it is well known.)

[Kaylovespie Lvl 2 LondonSkeletonPosts: 173]

Here is Julius telling JVH he found out about the exploit from Naugrim (contradicts with what Sephi said).

[Kaylovespie Lvl 2 LondonSkeletonPosts: 173]

Here is Julius Ceaser killing 5 characters with the wall exploit. Notice how the player is killed by him while he is disconnected. Also notice how Sephi is whispering with knowledge of what is happening – even saying she is hoping he gets good experience.

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