Balance – sandbox versus fascism

[SkeletonPosts: 181]

Right … EU server is my only experience. Largely I’ve spent my time (about a week) watching the chat over playing. A number of disturbing traits have become apparent.

There is a group of players who have taken it upon themselves to uphold order on EU and make it friendly. Fine enough so far.

This is done by issuing KOS on any who infract their own defined rules.
Here the problem starts.

Raiding has been outlawed. Even someone suggesting that a raid has occurred is enough for supposed retribution to come. In the form of a raid. And repeated death.

It also happens that murder is against the rules. Punishable by multiple murder.

Building a base is also barred, should that obstruct a road. Even if the road is redirected which seems a step further than I’d personally take. This is punished by base destruction and death.

To surmise. Murder and raiding are outlawed. Doing so results in your being murdered and raided.
Meaning building and UW remain as PvP and raiding are shutdown to the average player.

There is little land as established players have sprawling bases and destroying old ones is seen as raiding. There is no space to build.
Now just the UW remains.

There is no place to store loot. To place a recall tile. To sleep.
No game remains.

This clique that have elevated themselves is staffed by petty individuals – as an eg pointedly getting a name wrong when addressing someone – who have taken over the game and have turned it from open world to Orson Welles.

Whilst not fine this is still a challenge that I am managing to clear by not building a base or engaging much with people but instead using multiple alts – not exactly conducive to fair gameplay or a good community from either side but then raiding and society is the privilege of the rule makers so that doesn’t matter …

I have seen many people stressed out, raging in chat, quitting the game, being explicitly harassed by this small group of players and it frankly sickens me. I love to raid. I love PvP. As such I expect death and vengeance. But killing someone who joined an hour ago multiple times for an accidental attack? Mocking someone for their mother being dead? Erasing someone’s base without talking to them just because it’s close to yours? 3 separate incidents. 3 separate days. 3 plus seperate people doing it.

That does not make a game. That makes pixelated abuse.

I’ll not name drop the perpetrators as that should be obvious enough but some notable victims are Songokuhun and Testament. And for a little while myself until I just stopped engaging with the community, and pretty much stopped playing the game.

So … kicking the soapbox to the curb, what can be done about it?

Clearly a fine line has to be navigated. We have people in positions of power apparently moderating the server. They’re the ones causing the issues. Not quite server condoned, but a lack of reprimand is enough to indicate acceptance. This makes the likely first thought of a suggestion fail – who moderates the moderators after all?

Second thought would be to impose restrictions on playstyles. Again … This brings us back to the issue of becoming what we’re seeking to stop, and may ruin the sandbox nature of the game. Happily I am a veteran player of many MMORPGs and RTSs which focus on balancing construction (survival) and destruction (raiding) and have a few suggestions to make which whilst perhaps a smidge of a hassle to some I believe would resolve the issues of player abuse, land management and that old favourite of the hardcore gamer, nub-crushing.

First up, don’t display to general chat when someone logs in. Have a notification in Tribe chat or for Friends (more on that below) and don’t display the shared IP notification on login. Have it revealed on death (ideally by PK only) if you must share this.
On death, allow the option to return to your recall tile. I’ve seen repeated killing of players by people waiting at their recall. Again this could be a PK-triggered option.
Continuing the segue train, put a level range on non-duel PvP. Perhaps allow damage only from 1 player within a few second time scale to limit gang violence.

Implement a buddy system – you both accept it and it notifies when you’re friends are online, which map they’re on, perhaps even sending a message if they’re being attacked by a player – a feature which would be great for Tribes by the way 🙂

And the last suggestion of this post … the one most likely to be spat on by the established players and that would require a fair bit of work to implement … land management.

I gave creating a power system for land a decent 15 minutes of thought so whilst I expect there may be a ln issue or two with this that did escape my notice I do believe the basic premise and functionality are sound.

A base is essentially defined by the amount of walls and gates / counters built. These create the barriers that define public and private and I’ll refer to these as walls from here on for simplicity. Assessing the land inside I deemed overly complicated considering the prevalence of irregular structures, especially with tower defence mechanics playing a large role. My first thought went to dust earned being a factor but for better balance and to allow dying to have greater impact tying it into a skill promised the best return for the least amount of work. Construction stands out as the most applicable here.

I’ll toss out a bit of the math behind my conclusions before getting to them:

The basic formula is a bit complicated so prepare yourself for it now …

20 + Construction Level

Whooooa. Heavy math. Okay. Well-earned breather taken we can get back into it.

That 120 cap means that at max level a single player can have a 29×29 tile base ringed by a single thickness wall. As a gsme screen is I believe 13 tiles wide this seems an adequate amount – without having communal bases come into it which I personally would prefer – although thst would make that first equation even more complicated. Perhaps 20+(CL/4). Ooh. Heady stuff.

As a quick rundown, with x equal to the side of a regular square tile floor plan these equations show us how many walls are required.

1 tile thick: 4x+4
Protecting a 3×3 area requires 16 walls
2 tiles thick: 8x+16
Protecting a 3×3 area requires 40 walls
3 tiles thick: 12x+36
Protecting a 3×3 tile area requires 72 walls
4 tiles thick: 16x+64
Protecting a 3×3 tile area requires 112 walls

You should get the picture and be able to expand from that but if not the formula for [W]alls using [f]ickness and [t]ile space (regular square remember) is w=f(4f+2t)+t(2f). It can be condensed but I think it makes it more accessible this way 🙂

So 120 was our speculative cap for a single player. 4-tile walls just slip in with a cramped 3×3 area but the more practical 3-tile walls fill up the allotment perfectly and allow over double the space with a 7×7 floor-plan. And even the unskilled have enough for a single tile 4×4 base allowing newbies to have security from the get-go.

Depending on if this idea appeals it can tie into tribes and be tweaked for perhaps a durability increase rather than a gross expansion of available space. Each player in the tribe adds the base 20 stat and thrice their Construction level in HP to the tribe walls perhaps if the wall is connected to a Tribe Gate which can flag those walls to trigger their own adjacent structures.

And the crux of the security, and to add more of an impact to death – duels excluded – when a player or tribe’s Construction dips below that required by the walls then a random / the most damaged wall suffers accelerated decay – or my own personal preference of all of the walls take increased damage skewed by the difference in Construction required and currently held. If wished there are a few more factors that could accompany this.

Just the rather elongated opinions of a player who has been quietly watching the bullying and destruction of the incoming playerbase and has a few suggestions to redress the issues whilst also adding another facet to an incredible game.

AsyD

PS
The use of bank alts should be addressed as well. But let’s see how this goes down first

[Polar BearPosts: 41]

Man I can’t tell if you’re serious or trolling. At first I thought you were ranting, but once you said “15 minutes of thought” it made me think of the post in a satirical way.

[SkeletonPosts: 181]

Large amount of satire to be honest as I know that communities on games like these won’t change – but if the intent of the developers is there these are what I think are the best ways to fix things.
Care to share what you consider the downsides of my suggestions are? I’m getting the implicit eyeroll and doubt in your words ^_^

[SkeletonPosts: 103]

This is why we need a “World Server” where we can take our character and tribes and compete amongst the players around the world and battle.

Galebrook is too small.

So if the world server was just one big galebrook with only 1 level underworld. It would be great.

[Petros Lvl 7 USWestSkeletonPosts: 157]

I tried to read it all, i really did

But after you called testament and songoku “victims” every point you tried to make was wrong.
You say that toxic people like songoku who yesterday was insulting half global chat while admitting everything he did and saying a lot of really dissturbing things in pms to certain people (there are screenshots), were victims?

If you want to raid, raid. If you want to kill, kill. You must be prepared for the consequenses though. You cannot just hinder the progress of other people for your fun and the bitching because you get targeted.

[SkeletonPosts: 181]

Just because Songoku is misbehaving is not cause for others to misbehave towards him.

Report people here if they’re breaking rules. Don’t perpetuate the abuse.

Whilst it might not be true, his mother I believe died in a car crash recently? They’ve said that they’re autistic, and clearly they have rage problems, but they’re amiable enough in chat if not provoked, and I’d even say friendly to play with based on my very limited time going about with them.

Onto the main target of the harassment I’ve seen …
I personally have never witnessed Testament do anything except die in the UW.
Lots of claims against them, including their just doing something when I know they’ve not even been on as I’d been checking the /who list every few minutes waiting for a buddy, but nothing is ever provided as evidence and Zai just stirs the pot to irritate Testament. They barely speak in chat compared to what they used to do.

The issue is that the consequences are so heavily weighted against anyone who disagrees with this ruling clique. Testament first came to pariah status for taking crops from bushes someone had planted in the wild based on what I saw in chat. And in that chat there was a certain aggressive player calling them a ‘fucking idiot’ and attacking them, then branding them a thief over the next few hours, largely without any prompt. Rather than just stating that the crops were theirs. The fact that Testament’s chat is always a bit messy makes me think they have issues either with their fingers or mentally (sorry if you don’t dude ^_^) so whilst a bit of a stretch you’re essentially ragging on a dude in a wheelchair for not being able to run considering this game is thumb-based. On a phone at least which is by far the most effective way to play.

The swamping of Testament’s desert base last night by pretty much the top tier players in the server was just pathetic.

He’d blocked a road that led nowhere. They’d even begun making paths above and below the base. They said in global a few times they were changing it. Yet the top players descended on a relative newbie – I myself have barely played a week and they started after me – and wiped out their base and killed them, to chants and cheers from those on the clique bandwagon.

It’s mob rule and it’s not going to win over new players short of the die-hard fanatics of the genre who live and breathe on this kind of abuse and sticking it to the perpetrators. But as this is a mobile game, casual gamers are the likely market. Which means all that they’re doing is keeping the player-base small in an attempt to maintain their position.

There’s a lot of chatter about people from Texas coming across and the same people on EU are exhibiting the exact same traits again.

TL:DR you all need to get off your high-horses and stop getting off on the fact you have big numbers on a server that let you keep stomping on those who are racking up their own points under false pretexts.

The changes suggested here would cut into that in a big way, and help stop the proliferation of bases and land-grabbing that has occurred as well.

[Petros Lvl 7 USWestSkeletonPosts: 157]

take your alts and go troll another server

everyone in eu knows, end of discussion

[SkeletonPosts: 181]

A perfect example of someone with no place to do so attempting to control how the server runs.

Balancing the game, creating a more level playing field and allowing people space to build is not trolling.

[Polar BearPosts: 46]

I play in EU since it opened. I saw lot of people here, since they were newbie. I saw high lvl players quit the game and i miss them. I saw tribes growing from the start to top rank. I always tried to be polite and i always helped people. I think any player on the server can confirm this. I don’t like to fight against other player. I don’t raid other player’s base. But I’m not you. You can do what you want. From my point of view there are only 2 rules:
1) don’t kill other players without reason. If you have a good reason i won’t stop you. Did he insult you? Go kill him. Did he kill your dog? Go kill him. Did he kill you? Go kill him. I don’t care. But if you kill someone just because you have nothing to do i will do my best to erase you from the server.
2) don’t build on roads. Even if it’s an unused (maybe it is not) road. If someone made that road probably at least one player use it. So don’t build on roads. Build your house somewhere else. Is it hard to build out of roads?.

No other rules. You can kill people if there is a good reason or you can do it anyways, but in that case people will punish you, because we like a peaceful server. If you like pvp brace yourself. Grow up until you can face other players. Do you want to kill a lvl 20 player when you are lvl 40? You can. But don’t cry if a lvl 60 guy kills you.
Do you want to build on a road? Do it, but people will come to destroy your base, so you have to defend it. If you build out of roads you won’t have problems. There are free spots, you have to walk a bit to find one. I recently moved my base and it’s a 30×30. I found a spot for it, can’t you find a 7×7 for you house? I built it and member’s of a tribe told me that they need the space where i made it. Ok, i searched another spot for me, and i found it. We talked and we agreed that they will give me the resources needed to move. No death for anyone. The problem with the space is real, i know, but only if you want to build a big house. Your idea of implementing a cap on bases size is wrong. I can just use lot of alts to build lot of walls. Furthermore a 7×7 house is too small if you also need a farm. And moreover if i reinc i can’t have a base bigger than a 5×5. Is it a good idea? This would completely shut down reinc.

I’m sorry you don’t like EU, i like it a lot. I don’t play a lot due to rl, but when i’m online i don’t see abuses. Maybe i always play in the wrong moment.

[Cold1 Lvl 64 USTexasGoblinPosts: 58]

Oh gosh so much to reply to.. I’ll start by saying everyone brings up mods but then shut it down. I think having mods is needed specially as the game continues to grow. The dev as already taken a step to work on the land issues by making underworld more liveable. Maybe I’m wrong but the way I took it your basically saying that EU has to much rule? You should go to UST to play. Everyone knows ust is where u go to pk/raid. There’s also tons of land available and resources are plenty. I wish you the best of luck and hope you find your play style.

[SkeletonPosts: 181]

This is a rant on behalf of others. I’m keeping safe by using alts to handle my stuff.
I’m uncomfortable doing it as I dislike the cheap escape but there’s little other choice considering how one-sided the balance of power is.

I find EU fine although I would like to chat more – be sociable with those who kill me and I loot. It’s a game after all.

I thought I addressed the alts use for bases but I guess not. I’ll rattle that off in a moment. I did not consider reincarnation. As for needing space for a farm, run the risk solo or join a tribe 🙂 Adds more social interaction to the game. Can still be solo but just riskier. May be my imposing my own playstyle, but I’m discussing with people rather than decapitating them.

Alts would need to be active. Monitor steps taken / experience gained / actions made. I had a few formulae for it in my quarter hour notes.

As for reincarnation … Mmm. Again I’d lean towards tribal bases as a way around it, and some improvement of storage to allow items to take less space. Rattling this off in a spare momentum but I’ll give it thought when I have a minute. Perhaps a temporary boost that fades away. An increase wouldn’t work. Perhaps its just a risk of reincarnating. There isn’t much of one at present – just a loss of skills and upgrades.

As for mods … it’ll be skewed like the capricious council that I’m referring to is.

There are a couple of people I’ve seen I feel can run without bias – and myself of course 😉 – but then if I raided as a mod people would gripe. And it takes away some of the fun for people.

I’d still be willing if there are auditions … :p But I’d not do it at the cost of playing the game itself.

Maybe as an unknown alt … :p

Anyone made the Moderator account?

[Sirrus Lvl 17 USWestSkeletonPosts: 131]

im on eu about 4 months, was there when fleets terrorized server, was with ppl who made rules and now EU is diffrent than rest of servers. u dont like it? got 5 more warzone servers. eveyone knows that on EU is peace.
u said multikills after hour of play? never here, if we have issues with newbies – we talk, if talking dontt work u may die once. KOS is only for ppl like u, trolls, griefers, killers and raiders… ye u deserved KOS.
our community work very effective and u get used to it or change urself 🙂

[Malific Lvl 60 LondonPolar BearPosts: 28]

it’s sandbox. if the community wants to work together for peace. that’s sandbox, if you want to murder you will get murdered, if you want to raid you will get raided… it’s sandbox and we believe in eye for an eye on EU.

you can raid people that aren’t actively repairing bases.
you can kill the odd person for some small reason.
but if you are trouble… a repeated noob killer/raider, believe me justice will find you.
EU sandbox is about helping each other and being the good guys and the world won’t stand for your 10 raid alts and constant trouble making asylum/cheraz/cheeraz/testament/asydrabbit and whoever else you are.

Main roads are sacred.
Noobs are protected.
Active players are protected.
Play nice or play in pieces.

[Malific Lvl 60 LondonPolar BearPosts: 28]

you know how many noobs me and sirrus and other have built houses with/for ? the last 1 I helped a new player build came with 4 towers with 500 arrows in each. not just wood shacks. actual defended bases.

to sit here and say the “clique” make it hard for noobs to play is a joke.

we give items and books out to noobs.
I do weekly book lottos for lower players.
you came. you raided. you got chased off. go play on another server and see what it’s really like in “sandbox” mystera

[SkeletonPosts: 181]

It’s peace enforced by force though. So no, that’s not peace. It’s a dictatorship. Emphasis on that first syllable in reference to some players.

I’ve seen the logs so yes, an account logs in and died multiple times. 2 separate people doing the killing, one with multiple instances of this.
Raiding is a part of the game. I deserve to be obliterated for playing the game? No.
All of those nouns – troll, griefer, killer, raider – are what you guys become when you find anyone who disagrees. You just have the benefits of being powerful enough to crush due to having been established. You’re exactly what you’re masquerading as being a force to stop.

An eye for an eye is one thing – I’m perfectly fine being killed as a consequence of my attempt at raiding. But being abused in PM, followed around the safezones, blocked by player characters so I can’t move? No. That is player harassment. It has nothing to do with maintaining ‘peace’ – it’s purely an attempt to hound a player from the game.

you can raid people that aren’t actively repairing bases.
Really? Sirrus and Zei have cracked walls pretty much all the time. That mean you’d not object to someone hammering away to finish the job?

you can kill the odd person for some small reason.
Such as trolling in chat? Building a base on the same screen as an established tribe? Accidentally hitting you as they figure out the game? All reasons from this little clique. Yet killing someone as a part of actually playing the game is not allowed?

but if you are trouble… a repeated noob killer/raider, believe me justice will find you.
Again, bias and personal standards come into play here. I’d raided one person, who wasn’t even playing before being set upon. Yet the main reasons I saw against me were fabricated nonsense. Songoku was talking rubbish in the chat and was hunted down. People were speaking RUssian and French and a KOS was issued on them. Testament altered a road and had his base demolished immediately, no conversation about changing it.

How is that helping each other and being good?

AsylumDreams and AsyDRabbit are me. Testament I know of, but no clue who cheraz and cheeraz are. So again, more assumptions that fail.

Main roads are sacred? No. Entire exit points of screens are blocked off by tribe bases. That’s not freedom of movement.

Noobs are protected? What defines a noob? I was actively hunted after a couple of hours on the server just for walking around and getting my name on a few towers as I used a sword near bases and didn’t know it was hitting things. No explanations or queries.

Active players meaning the older clique? Not newbies.

Play nice or play in pieces – so a threat to conform to your own standards here or get off of the game? Perfect.

It seems you should petition to set up a peaceful server without PvP if you have such distaste for it and have such a compelling need to grind your heel down into a new generation of players seeking to enjoy the game as the mechanics allow.

Although then you’d not get to have that cathartic bliss of feeling the bones of minutes old players crack beneath your weeks old account stats.

you came. you raided. you got chased off. go play on another server and see what it’s really like in “sandbox” mystera

I have gone to Texas. As soon as I logged in I got greetings, offers to have a house built, to live with players, and even when I stated I play to grief and raid I was welcomed.

I received a few welcomes when I logged in in EU, and then was treated like shit by all of the clique that is bleating about ideas and suggestions – all of which are conveniently not being addressed in favour of rhetoric and discourse about how they’re doing good – that will help out new players.

*Not displaying shared IPs
*Damage from 1 player
*Friend system
*Land management

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